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Any timetables in development?

You are here: Home > Forum > Simulations > Timetables > Birmingham New Street > Any timetables in development?

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Any timetables in development? 06/02/2017 at 23:09 #92966
Trainfan344
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Having recently purchased Birmingham New Street as part of the west mid sims package, I was disappointed with the lack of timetables. I was wondering if anyone has any timetables in development?

I had a couple of ideas, a 1970s timetable and a timetable from when Proof House Junction was closed for re-modelling work during the 2000s. I have no resources or ability to create my own timetable unfortunately, hence the reason for creating this thread.

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Any timetables in development? 06/02/2017 at 23:19 #92967
Steamer
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A 2009 TT should have been included in the package, and there's a 2015 TT available from the download area?
"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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Any timetables in development? 07/02/2017 at 00:46 #92968
kaiwhara
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Trainfan344 in post 92966 said:
... I was disappointed with the lack of timetables. I was wondering if anyone has any timetables in development
Thank you for voicing your disappointment. I was wondering whether you actually know how much work is involved in the creation of timetables, let alone simulations?

As someone who does actually spend a significant period of time on timetable creation, there is a huge amount of work to get a timetable for a sim the size of New Street completed and bug free, and I am not paid to do this. I do plan on creating one for New Street once other more pressing Simsig commitments are dealt with, but it will not be any time soon.

Andrew

Sorry guys, I am in the business of making people wait!
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Any timetables in development? 07/02/2017 at 01:58 #92969
Gwasanaethau
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Just to expand on what Kaiwhara has said – I have a fictional timetable for South Humberside that’s been in development for about six years now (has it really been that long? Oh my…). I have all the passenger moves down, but work and other commitments are stopping me from testing it completely. Whenever I find a clash, I have to retest the whole timetable to ensure that my resolution hasn’t just move the clash to somewhere else. As the timetable is so intensive, I can’t run it by myself at full speed, so I run it at half speed. It is a 24-hour timetable (actually 7-days, but most of it repeats each day with a few variations thrown in for the ‘lolz’). 24 hours at half speed means that a test-run takes at the very least 48 hours constant play without stopping for food or sleep (realistically this translates to a month or more).

In case there was any confusion, I too wish there were more timetables out there for a lot of the sims! That is part of the reason why I started developing the SH one; and I now understand why there are so few – I’ve wanted to give up on many an occasion!

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Any timetables in development? 07/02/2017 at 08:14 #92970
Champs450007
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It takes a lot of time and effort to create a timetable I've been working on one for Wimbledon for Christmas Eve since the 19th of december. Even though the trains are 90% entered it takes a lot of testing when you find clashes or problems with the timetable programming that you have to adjust things around. They are coming along but just like waiting for new sims they will come out when they are ready :).
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Any timetables in development? 07/02/2017 at 08:33 #92971
58050
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One problem for the lack of timetables with sims is the fact that not many developers ask those of us who write timetables for the sims they are developing, I have personally atm write timetables for 2 or 3 developers. But these timetables can takes several months to write & then test prior to being re3leased. Furthermore there is all the documerntation required to make the timetable as realistic as possible. . I personally only write timetables that cover the BR era & that in itself can takes months or years to do. For example I originally wrote the Carlisle 1979-1980 timetable several years ago. The timetable has been re-worked, re-written several times to take in effect of changes SimSig has made such as the addition of 'decisions' & changes to the core code etc. I personally have started a timetable for Birmingham New Street based on the summer of 1988 to go with Coventry & Leamington Spa summer 1988 timetable & then a Wolverhampton summer 1988 timetable to go with it.
One significant failure within SimSIg is the fact that older era timetables take alot longer to create than modern era timetables together with the fact that when new sims are veing developed there is a double eged sword in place where there is a somewhat secret society in position where the developers don';t want sims in devlopment to become public knowledgee, but on the other hand when they do tend to get released you only tend to get the 1 timetable for one era & as a result could wel affect sales especially if the sim covers several eras, but Geoff may not be able to wait for the amount of time it takes to write & test an older era timetable before he then releases a sim for sale. SO for me you are always playing catch up. These days I tend to write timetables only & ONLY play them when testing. A difficult balancing act whens alls said & done.

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Any timetables in development? 07/02/2017 at 09:25 #92973
Danny252
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And in the case of New Street specifically, I believe Pascal (58050) was reluctant to create a 70s/80s timetable for a while due to a number of outstanding changes or modifications to the sim are needed to make it workable - e.g. allowing engines to enter from Saltley MPD (rather than several miles away towards Water Orton), or various missing sidings/connections.

I presume he's worked out how to avoid those problems now - or that 1988 is late enough that they don't matter much.

Last edited: 07/02/2017 at 09:26 by Danny252
Reason: .

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Any timetables in development? 07/02/2017 at 10:59 #92974
dwelham313
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Just to echo the other comments, I have a Saltley and Derby 4-day Chainable timetable for 2015 in development. The timetable runs for 98 hours most of which has to be tested at half speed. It's almost finished with its third run through now but this equates to nearly 600 hours which doesn't even include compiling the timetable in the first place!

With over 5500 trains I'm down to around 20 minor errors such as spelling mistakes or missing rules. It's not on the backburner but I am having a break from testing it until I stop seeing headcodes when I go to sleep!

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Any timetables in development? 07/02/2017 at 11:47 #92975
Javelin395
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I too wish there were more timetables and yes, the lack of additional timetables for some of the sims has stopped me from purchasing them.

However, as someone that has helped test timetables for the Wimbledon and Feltham sims, I can only reiterate what others have said. Just testing these two timetables required a very thorough run through (at half speed) and then again once any issues I'd picked up had been amended (and there were surprisingly few of them given the sheer amount of data that needs to be entered). I also ran them again with the two sims chained to check trains were handing over correctly. God only knows how much work the author must have put in before I 'did my bit' !!

So, nothing wrong in you having asked the question but hopefully you can now better understand why it is as it is.

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Any timetables in development? 07/02/2017 at 12:21 #92976
Noisynoel
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Of course, anyone can create a timetable in simsig and the web has a surprising amount of useful information if you want it realistic, of course you could also try a completely fictional one.
Creating timetables, whilst being along job is also very rewarding... give it a go!

Noisynoel
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Any timetables in development? 07/02/2017 at 21:48 #92985
Trainfan344
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kaiwhara in post 92968 said:
Trainfan344 in post 92966 said:
... I was disappointed with the lack of timetables. I was wondering if anyone has any timetables in development
Thank you for voicing your disappointment. I was wondering whether you actually know how much work is involved in the creation of timetables, let alone simulations?

As someone who does actually spend a significant period of time on timetable creation, there is a huge amount of work to get a timetable for a sim the size of New Street completed and bug free, and I am not paid to do this. I do plan on creating one for New Street once other more pressing Simsig commitments are dealt with, but it will not be any time soon.

Andrew
Yes, I am rather aware of the fact that it's a lot of hard work, depending on free time and commitments to other people. Hence the only asking if anyone was developing anything not demanding results instantaneously.

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Any timetables in development? 07/02/2017 at 23:50 #92988
jc92
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Danny252 in post 92973 said:
And in the case of New Street specifically, I believe Pascal (58050) was reluctant to create a 70s/80s timetable for a while due to a number of outstanding changes or modifications to the sim are needed to make it workable - e.g. allowing engines to enter from Saltley MPD (rather than several miles away towards Water Orton), or various missing sidings/connections.

I presume he's worked out how to avoid those problems now - or that 1988 is late enough that they don't matter much.
Also exchange sidings shunt frame is missing which several ECS and parcels enter/leave by which doesnt help and prevents my 81/82 SWB fro. Being used for a timetable.

"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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Any timetables in development? 08/02/2017 at 12:32 #93002
58050
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Another major problem with the early era mode for Birmingham New Street is the fact that you can't timetable anything from Curzon Street PCD. This has been reported on MANTIS & until such time that has been resolved you can't complete an 80s era timetable.
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Any timetables in development? 10/02/2017 at 09:44 #93028
Champs450007
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Im having similar issues with a Feltham timetable im making for this coming april. Obviously because Reading has had a remodel and theres now platforms 4/5/6 on the southern side of the station they use the platforms more than what they did a few years ago so having to work around additional services is taking some creative thinking by using 4A/B just for Swt. All little things add up to great amounts of time before we even reach testing :).
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Any timetables in development? 11/02/2017 at 11:24 #93039
304033
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I have thought about the idea of helping create timetables for a while now, however what has put me off is the lack of information on here about how to actually go about it.

To begin wither, where do you actually create the timetable? Within the sim itself or externally in XML or something?

I have a feeling the general 'lack' of timetables is because people, me included (and I have been in the SimSig 'community' for at least 10 years now) still dont really have a clue about where to begin writing timetables.

I would be happy to give it a go, but when I have tried before inside the sim it has become tedious and given up... Surely there is another way? :)

304033 (NELL on MultiPlayer).

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Any timetables in development? 11/02/2017 at 11:32 #93040
304033
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kaiwhara in post 92968 said:
Trainfan344 in post 92966 said:
... I was disappointed with the lack of timetables. I was wondering if anyone has any timetables in development
Thank you for voicing your disappointment. I was wondering whether you actually know how much work is involved in the creation of timetables, let alone simulations?

As someone who does actually spend a significant period of time on timetable creation, there is a huge amount of work to get a timetable for a sim the size of New Street completed and bug free, and I am not paid to do this. I do plan on creating one for New Street once other more pressing Simsig commitments are dealt with, but it will not be any time soon.

Andrew
Sorry Andrew, I have to say... Your post reads as this was a personal attack on you.

In *my* opinion, if its that much of an issue for you that someone comes to the forum and says this (and I agree with the OP) and you feel that a response is required quoting that it is taking up so much time and you dont get 'paid' to do this (not sure why you mentioned that anyway?!) then maybe do something else?

Apologies though. As you see, I have a very low post count, even after being here so many years I hardly ever feel the need to comment on anything on the forum! However your response really did make me rather upset that you took it so personally.

304033 (NELL on multiplayer).

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Any timetables in development? 11/02/2017 at 11:51 #93042
Steamer
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304033 in post 93039 said:
I have thought about the idea of helping create timetables for a while now, however what has put me off is the lack of information on here about how to actually go about it.
What would you like to know? There's plenty of people, myself included, who are happy to answer questions. Any answers could go on the Wiki as well.

Quote:
To begin wither, where do you actually create the timetable? Within the sim itself or externally in XML or something?
All my timetables were written using the built-in TT editor. There are options to do data imports using Network Rail's timetable feed (the same thing which provides the schedules in Real Time Trains), but it isn't necessary.

Quote:
I would be happy to give it a go, but when I have tried before inside the sim it has become tedious and given up... Surely there is another way? :)
There are certain tricks that can make it a bit easier, but yes, timetable writing can become tedious!

"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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Any timetables in development? 11/02/2017 at 18:57 #93045
GeoffM
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304033 in post 93039 said:
I have thought about the idea of helping create timetables for a while now, however what has put me off is the lack of information on here about how to actually go about it.
A good starting point is the Wiki where there are a number of pages on writing a timetable:
https://www.simsig.co.uk/Wiki/Show?page=usertrack:ssrun:func:f4#An%20Introduction%20to%20Timetables

304033 in post 93039 said:
I would be happy to give it a go, but when I have tried before inside the sim it has become tedious and given up...
Personally I find writing timetables tedious. But others love it and churn them out rapidly. Most, if not all, the "Groundhog" timetables (the 15-10-2009 timetables supplied with most sims) did originate in electronic form from the likes of Network Rail's Open Data but many of the trains still need activities adding (next working, joins, divides, run-rounds) and all need stock adding (4 car class 319 kind of thing). Older timetables, like 58050's, involve somebody laboriously typing in timing point data for every single train by hand - though there is probably enough repetition to copy and offset times for clockface services. Then there is convdata by Clive (see page linked above) which provides another way of writing timetables.

So there are lots of tools and documentation. Different people have different preferences and expertise. Just ask on the forum and somebody will be able to help.

SimSig Boss
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Any timetables in development? 12/02/2017 at 11:39 #93063
GW43125
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It takes ages, I've been working on a Rugby chain timetable for probably six months now and I've only got passenger up to 9am because my study keeps getting in the way. Part of the issue is that during the peaks all the stopping patterns are slightly different, or the timings are a couple of minutes slacker/tighter in some places, necessitating a total rewrite. Should get better once I finish the 1Rxx I hope, fingers crossed... So I suppose the challenge is whether or not I finish it before I go to Uni next year...
Last edited: 12/02/2017 at 11:42 by GW43125
Reason: Mentioning lack of clockface

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Any timetables in development? 14/01/2022 at 17:11 #143529
lukebriner
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I am working on Wolverhampton 1985 and as well as all of the info you need to make it realistic, as others have said, any mistakes (or ommissions) in the sim can make you forgo certain services that can't be copied very easily/accurately.

For me, I think the main thing are the timetable editing dialogs which involve a lot of mouse clicking and typing.

For the passenger trains, I am entering the info from the WTT into a spreadsheet first which helps me not only simplify the view of the data I need but also allows me to check platforming, ensure I have enough sidings, make sure ordering of sidings is correct etc. I can then easily highlight certain workings "where does this engine come from?" so I can make sure everything ties up.

Once this is done, it would be great to import that directly from spreadsheet/CSV into the simsig tt editor since entering all the timings takes a long time. Otherwise, if the locations tab allowed to enter data like a spreadsheet with codes like CC which transate to crew change, it might take away a lot of the effort.

I was just imagining adding TTs for stafford and BNS afterwards for chaining but Birmingham New Street? My 1 panel tt has probably taken 20 hours so far and I haven't even started testing yet ;-)

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Any timetables in development? 14/01/2022 at 17:40 #143533
officer dibble
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I'm steadily working through 3 at the moment (in order of completeness):

1) Summer Saturday 1992 - the latest iteration has been sent out for a test/run through to iron out any (further) issues.

2) June to September 2002 - covers the final months of HST & Cl.47 workings on Virgin Crosscountry services, as well as the introduction of the Cl.220 Voyagers onto some additional workings.

3) Proof House Blockade 10-28 August 2000 - covers the Proof House Blockade as part of the WCML upgrade.


N.B. The 2002 & PH Blockade TTs may be delayed for longer than I hoped, as I am finding it nigh on impossible (at the moment) to locate freight WTTs for the required time periods. They may be initially released as "non-freight" until I can obtain the info required to update.

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Any timetables in development? 17/01/2022 at 20:50 #143609
phil1044
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My latest 5 day timetables are for Rugby Centre and Rugby North, based on the same week in 2020 as my Wolverhampton, Birmingham, Aston, Coventry and Leamington Spa timetables which are already released and available. The two Rugby's will chain to the Coventry timetable when they are finished.

Phil

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Any timetables in development? 17/01/2022 at 23:12 #143617
bill_gensheet
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lukebriner in post 143529 said:


For me, I think the main thing are the timetable editing dialogs which involve a lot of mouse clicking and typing.

...
Once this is done, it would be great to import that directly from spreadsheet/CSV into the simsig tt editor since entering all the timings takes a long time.
It is possible (maybe insane, but I said possible :-) ) to produce a SimSig xml timetable file through a spreadsheet using string manipulation. Works best for trains with similar timetables, obviously not identical or you'd just use 'duplicate'. Maybe the same calling patterns but say irregular times or missing a stop.
So you could create all the Euston - Wolverhamptons (and ECS Oxley) by just putting in a Wolverhampton time and whether they call Sandwell.
The spreadsheet then does maths on the time, increments TD&UID, puts Sandwell as pass or call etc and outputs the xml from a base tested single train timetable.

I find spreadsheet edited/generated xml is also useful for global edits (timing errors, adding UID when you forget) . Notepad is far simpler to just fix typos.

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Any timetables in development? 18/01/2022 at 08:42 #143620
andyallen4014
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Agreed it would be great if the repetitive data inputting in the timetable screen could be minimised. I always find I have journeys with the same or similar calling patters but have timings of 2 or 3 minutes different, so can't simply use "duplicate" without having to still go through and change the times. Would be great to use the export function, amend the times, and then reimport. This may be possible but i've not managed to work out how it would be done without too much complicated computer knowledge.
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